01.10.2004

Pohamba on what drives him, the destroyers, deities and the dutiful

SWAPO Vice President and Presidential candidate for the ruling party, Hifikepunye Pohamba, took time off his busy schedule this week to speak to The Namibian's Christof Maletsky.

CM: Thank you, Minister Pohamba, for granting us the interview

despite your hectic schedule. For starters, tell us about your

vision for Namibia. Where do you see Namibia if you are given the

next five years to rule the country as President?

HP: People always talk about me ruling the country. It is, of

course, not wrong to say that I will be the leader but we should

not forget that Swapo is the one continuing with its programmes. My

vision will be based on the continuation of peace and national

reconciliation. Without peace it won't work. The vision can only be

accomplished in a peaceful environment. We need to expand our

economic base and our social foundation. First, we must ensure

economic growth and then we will see social changes such as more

employment. For example, we need to see three or four members in a

family of five employed. The question is: how will the economy

grow? The Government and the private sector must work together. In

actual fact, I see the private sector as a major player. Yes, it

will require the Government to take certain steps in order to pave

the way for the private sector to reach where there is a need.

Government must put up the infrastructure, for example the roads.

It must also assist with black empowerment. The Government must

assist them with the capital to do what they want to. It will

affect social development. In other words, we will be able to put

up more schools, more clinics, more hospitals, more roads and other

things.

CM: You spoke of collective responsibility. That means you will

continue to consult President Sam Nujoma. You also mentioned that

it will be Swapo ruling and not you as an individual. Some people

interpret that as being remote-controlled or being a puppet of

President Nujoma. What sort of influence will President Nujoma have

on your decisions and what are your views on those claims?

HP: Namibia is a democratic country and people say what they

believe. People say what they think. But in this particular

context, I see them as being ignorant. They do not know or perhaps

they do not understand how Swapo works. Say, for example, Swapo is

the ruling party. Swapo party is not a one-person controlled

organisation. Swapo party is led by a group of elected people. For

example, we as a party have decided that Sam Nujoma will have to

complete his term of office as President of the party. And that

will come about in 2007. Now, if we talk about Swapo as a ruling

party, then Sam Nujoma is there as President and I am there as Vice

President. Certainly if we, and I would like this to be the case,

are to talk about Swapo party Government, Sam Nujoma will have an

influence too because he is the President of the party. I will have

an influence as Vice President. Sam Nujoma cannot just make

decisions. In accordance with the Swapo Party constitution, it is

the Politburo and the Central Committee that is leading. It is not

one person. But Sam Nujoma's ideas will be listened to as has been

the case. My ideas, as Vice President of the party, and as the

President of the country, will have also to be listened to. The

ideas and views of other leaders of Swapo and Cabinet will also

have to be listened to. It is the Cabinet that is going to run the

Government, not the President [of Namibia alone]. People in Cabinet

were put there through a democratic system. You can't become a

member of Cabinet if you are not a member of Parliament. You can't

just bring in people unconstitutionally. So you have a Cabinet

which is democratically led by democratically elected people. So

those who are saying that maybe I will be remote-controlled by Sam

Nujoma say it because they don't understand how Swapo runs its

affairs and how Swapo runs the Government. It has never been, and

it is not going to be, a one person show.

CM: Recently, when you addressed a Swapo rally in Mariental, you

said that you would assemble a team of competent cadres. Are we

likely to see more young ministers like the Dr Iyambos and

Kuugongelwa-Amadhilas in your Cabinet? How do you want to blend

them with the old guard?

HP: The names that you mentioned are already in there. You see,

definitely all the people who started it (Swapo), (and) the time

will come for them to give chances to the young people. And these

old people should not just leave at one time and you leave it to

the young people. What I want to see is that as old people move out

one by one, then we will bring in young ones, one by one.

Kuugongelwa and Iyambo are already there. And certainly one would

wish to see more young people coming in to replace the old people.

So this is what I would like to see. It is a set-up that we have

already established as Swapo party leadership.

CM: Prior to the Swapo Extra-ordinary congress we have heard a

lot about the pace of land reform in Namibia. It has gone a bit

quiet recently. Where are we at with the expropriation of farms?

Has the Government expropriated any farm so far? Don't you think

that those who said that expropriation was being used as a campaign

tool are justified?

HP: Well, the Government of Swapo party was directed by the party

congress held in 2002 and those directives were given on the basis

of the 1991 Land Conference. The directives are these: that the

willing-seller willing-buyer be done together with expropriation.

The Government has accepted to implement the decision of the party

congress of 2002. To do this, one has to do it within the framework

of the law. We, after the 2002 directives, have been working to see

whether the existing law did not have some loopholes that needed

mending. We found some loopholes were there and should be mended

legally. When we talk about the mending of these loopholes, we are

talking about the amendments to the law. We did make the amendment

to the law to allow everything to be done legally. That is the

expropriation.

When the amendments were effected, the Government had to move.

Expropriation was announced by the Prime Minister and as Minister

of Lands I did make an explanation in the National Assembly. Now,

as I am talking to you, we have already send out letters to the

identified land owners, asking them to sell their property to the

Government. It is not just that we have gone to them and said we

are expropriating. First, we moved by asking them to sell their

property to the Government because the Government wants these

properties - you may call it farms. So, these people were given the

opportunity and time to respond and many of them responded. Some

feel that they cannot sell their land. Now the Government is moving

into the next step. I mean the next step is that of informing these

people that the Government is now going to move by expropriating

[their farms]. We are now at this stage. Some have already been

informed that their places (land) are now going to be expropriated

for the purpose that we have explained. That is for resettling

people from the formerly disadvantaged sections of the population.

We are on the right course (with) expropriation. You say that you

don't hear things now. We don't always go in the streets and

announce what we are doing. We are doing things quietly. If there

is a need to inform the public, we do it at an appropriate time.

Not that, any move we make, we must go to the newspapers and tell

them what we do. Until those who are interested have come to us,

like you did now, and this is what I am now telling you and through

you, because you always go and write. Your paper, being popular as

it is, will be able to put it for the readers to read and for them

to know that the move is on for expropriating some identified

farms. continued on next page from the previous page It has to go

parallel to the willing-seller willing-buyer principles. So, we are

on the move for expropriation.

CM: In your acceptance speech at the Swapo Congress of August

2002, you said Swapo should rise above petty differences and show

people out there that the party was worth their trust and

confidence. Yet, since before the extra-ordinary congress we have

seen a lot of infighting, back-biting and character assassination

and letters being sent to and fro in the party. Do you have

anything to say about that?

HP: Like I have said earlier, Namibia is a democratic country.

People write what they feel like writing. Say for example, you talk

about character assassination. I have never heard (of) an article

written by Nahas Angula or Hidipo Hamutenya and, certainly, I did

not do it as we were running for presidential candidate nomination.

But in the society, and when we talk about the society we can also

mention in Swapo, Swapo is composed of individuals and some of the

individuals went too far. Not because they were directed to go that

far by us, the three who were running. They did some of this harm.

I call it harm because they went to the extent of writing letters

that were very, very damaging. The three of us regret that these

people went to do these things which they were not directed to do.

Character assassinations by some people, using some names and

talking certain places as being the places where they come from.

Say, for example, you have a person who became popular because of

this writing and who, it is claimed, came from Eenhana. My home is

just about 22km from Eenhana by the way and I went to check on this

person. He is not known in Eenhana. We were even checking whether

there is another Eenhana. At the Eenhana we know, this person is

not known. We had also checked whether this person was a Swapo

person. We failed to get .... he writes as if he is Swapo but

definitely we don't have him in our records of membership. I see

some of the people who are writing may be coming from the...

somewhere, maybe not really from within Swapo. But they are writing

as if they are Swapo members. I see people just doing that in order

to bring people to think that within Swapo, as you have put it

yourself, that there is character assassination within Swapo. The

Swapo cadres are guided by the written principles in the

Constitution of the party as well as in other resolutions that the

party passes in its meetings. Otherwise we do not believe that

those who are doing this are really Swapo members. In Swapo, if we

have something that we would like to talk (about), the avenues are

there. We can meet through our party structures to discuss issues

but not to resort to writing. It is not a Swapo way of doing

things. What you read and what you refer to as some kind of

character assassination within the Swapo party... those who are

doing it, they are not doing it in the Swapo way of doing things.

Such people, I question whether they are Swapo. I feel they are

not.

CM: Don't you think that what they are doing will undermine your

presidency. How do you intend dealing with it?

HP: (Sits up) Well, I have gone out to speak to the Swapo

leaders at the regional and district level of the party structures

and I also address(ed) public rallies on this and I have explained

to the people within our leadership as well as our members, through

the rallies that I have addressed, that they should ignore this

character assassination type of writing. It is not from within

Swapo. It is other people who want to see some kind of discomfort

within the party who are writing these. Our members should not be

carried away by those who are writing these things. They should

stick to the Swapo way of doing things.

CM: Uppermost in people's thoughts is the future of former

minister Hidipo Hamutenya in the party and Government. Someone said

that history suggests that once you are out of favour with certain

individuals in Swapo, like President Nujoma, you are out. You are

not President Nujoma. Can we expect Mr Hamutenya in your

Cabinet?

HP: Hidipo Hamutenya is a member of the Swapo party leadership.

He is my colleague and I look at him as a member of the leadership.

I look at all the leaders of Swapo as my colleagues. He is to me no

different from other colleagues in the leadership. I don't want to

comment on what had happened to him as a minister and no more

minister. What I want to say is that he remains a leader of the

party and I keep recognising and looking at him as such.

CM: So we might see him coming back and having some sort of a

leadership role in your Cabinet?

HP: Well, that I don't want to comment on. I am not yet the

President. Come back to me after the November elections and I will

tell you.

CM: Last weekend, Swapo Secretary General Dr Tjiriange claimed

there is a šdon't vote (for) Pohambaš campaign. You

have earlier also referred to the vicious campaign letters doing

rounds to criticise certain leaders. Who, really, are the people at

work to destroy Swapo from within?

HP: Well, I have not seen one [person] and I would not like to

respond to rumours. I would like to see people coming forth and

tell me that they were instructed not to vote, either for Swapo or

its candidate. But if there are people doing that, I would like to

hear who they are. I would like to see who they are and than if

they are members of the party, the case is taken up through the

party machinery. We have got the machinery within the party. It

will deal with those people appropriately if they are found. But so

far, I am just hearing rumours and as a person who does not want to

build things on rumours, I refrain to make comments on that.

CM: People say that there seems to be a culture of fear taking

root within Swapo. What do you have to say about this?

HP: In actual fact, I am wondering to hear all these things from

the journalist of your person. Things that I don't know happening

within my party. I would like to find out from you, where do you

get... who provides this information to you? It is a question to

you. I am asking you. You seem to be informed of what is happening

in the party. As far as I know, I have not seen your name in the

structures of the Swapo party. You may be an individual member of

the party but I don't know whether you are. I just want to know how

do you get this information and who provides this information to

you - an outsider?

CM: I put the question to you because we have seen some

communication that indicated that a culture of fear exists in the

party.

HP: You see, you as a writer or as a newspaper. I recall very

well the day our extra-ordinary congress started. Your paper had an

opinion that Pohamba was at a disadvantage because of this and

that. And I think that article was written by one person. And

because he put it in the newspaper it was considered as an opinion

of many. The reality, when the results came out, proved The

Namibian wrong. You see, it (article) was looked at as if The

Namibian or the person who wrote the article on that day was very

well informed but he was proved wrong by the outcome of the

congress. So, some of those things is just one person taking up a

piece of paper and a pen and writing it for the newspaper. And it

is considered as if this is an opinion collected from many people.

This is where I normally don't go with such opinions written by an

individual like the one I saw in The Namibian, the paper that you

represent. Will you dispute that article? Sometimes, as a citizen

and Namibian, I want you to tell me how you reach such conclusions

as a newspaper. Can you tell me? You know the conclusion was

wrong?

CM: The Namibian has different components. There is a column of

the Editor where she expresses her views on certain issues. We also

have an opinion page that can carry the articles and opinions of

people outside the newspaper. Articles by journalists are based on

information they get from sources and their own experience.

HP: That is how, sometimes, newspapers can mislead people. Like

that article in The Namibian. It misled people. One day, if one

says that The Namibian is not telling the truth, it is based on

those kind of articles. You can agree with me on that. Don't you? I

hope that you are not the one who wrote it.

CM: Certainly not.

HP: That is good.

CM: Can you tell us what is the driving force in your life. What

qualities do you think you will need the most?

HP: The driving force is the trust my colleagues in Swapo have

in me. I look at it as a challenge and I took it up. It is not the

first time that I was given a responsibility. This is a

responsibility given to me by my colleagues and I have to take it

up. Several times I was given responsibilities. Sometimes a

responsibility that even risked my life. I did that in the past.

Perhaps they felt that since he did this in the past, let's entrust

him with these responsibilities. However, all has to be done by us

collectively. I rely on them. There is that driving force that is

the confidence that they have in me, but I have to do everything

relying on their advice and their assistance. It must not be seen

as a one-person show. It is a collective leadership that we provide

for our party and as a Government.

CM: The very last one. You are 69 years old. At the end of the

first term you will be 75. Can we expect you to stand for a second

term?

HP: Well, I would like you to ask me that question after the

21st of March next year and I will give you an appropriate

answer.

CM: Thanks very much Minister.

HP: Good.

CM: We always appreciate you making time to speak to us.

HP: No, you see. At The Namibian some people misunderstand me.

There are people I feel I should not talk to, exercising my right.

You are not many. When they interview me, they go and expand on

what I did not say and I felt that there is no use in talking to

those people. What is the use of granting an interview. Some feel

that it is The Namibian newspaper that I don't want to talk to but

I say 'no'. It is certain individuals in The Namibian who go and

expand for reasons only known to them. They put their own things. I

don't like that. Perhaps, even in this interview, if I find that

you are going to say things that I did not say, then what is the

use of accepting a request from you to interview me. But,

interviewing and talking to a person are two different things. I

can talk to that person but when he wants to interview me, I say:

šI am sorry, not an interview. I'm not going to do

itš. It is within my right. People should not take it that

it is The Namibian that I don't want to talk to. I even made it

clear to them or to him or to her that The Namibian, including my

sister Gwen Lister, they are welcome to talk to me. Provided that

they should not expand or add their own things. I have nothing bad

with The Namibian as a newspaper. In actual fact I spend a lot of

money buying The Namibian newspaper and I gain a lot of

information. I'm buying information, in actual fact, from The

Namibian . I like to read The Namibian.

CM: That's good to hear from you.